Let's talk vegetables

[kim55]

I know there are standard lists of "safe" foods but I haven't always found them to be accurate.

I am on this darn weight-reduction diet where I am required to eat non-starchy vegetables at least twice a day (with protein, thank goodness). At the same time I am being a lot more careful with my diet since joining this board. So the only vegetables I know that fit both restrictions on my diet are spinach and lettuce. I have been steaming fresh spinach with feta cheese (yum!) but I suspect I will get tired of it before the month is up. And I'm really not that crazy about lettuce. So yesterday I ate some zucchini and broccoli, both of which contain some fructose but which haven't bothered me much in the past. (Of course I usually add some cheese to them to counteract the hypo symptoms.) My stomach was upset all afternoon. I am now looking for ideas for other vegetables I could eat on this diet. I can eat potatoes but they don't count for this diet, they come under a different category (starch). Any ideas?

[charlie]

I think weight loss and HFI are a big problem as has been discussed before. The main difficulty being that most diets work around using vegetables and fruit to pad out the food to satisfy the stomach.

I suppose you have to weigh up your need to lose weight against making your system ill by eating unsuitable foods which will than cause increased weight gain by clogging up your metabolic system. You may just need to eat plain good quality simple foods that are easily metabolised

[ukbill]

I find zucchini and broccoli contain too much Fructose for me.

I can eat a very little Broccoli if I only eat the green "florets" and leave the stalk. Zucchini are a definite no-no for me.

There are 2 problems with dieting.

1/. Most diets use fruit of vegetables that are not suitable for the HFI diet
2/. As we eat so little food that our body starts to use the body fat to provide energy (which is the purpose of a diet) our body's convert the body fat back into glucose and Fructose!

This is why we can go Hypo when working hard if we have not eaten enough food before we start the exercise.

As our body fat contains lots of de-solved vitamins in it it is not usual in a normal diet for a person to get low in vitamins. So we do not need to look at vegetables as a source of vitamins.

I would suggest as a bulking agent using a none digestible plant fibre.

When I feel the need to reduce my weight a little and do not have time for hard physical work, I start the day with a milk shake which contains 1.5 teaspoons of fibre. It keeps me feeling full for several hours.

I will also have one when I'm feeling hungry before bed.

1/2 pint semi skimmed milk (half fat) 1 small pot of plain fat free yoghurt and 1.5 tea spoons of fibre. mix well allow to stand for 5 min and mix again (the fibre tends to float to the top and clump) then drink.

Job done.

The stuff I use (as recommended by my Doctor) is Psyllium Husks.

I get it off ebay in the UK form "the Spice Works" although it must be available in the USA I would imagine.

The UK ebay number for the stuff is 270688342810 if you want to get more information about it.

I one time bought the fine ground husks as well.. this is only any good for use in cooking by adding it to flour for example as it clumps too readily and is very difficult to incorporate into a drink or to spread on breakfast cereals.

[kim55]

Thanks for your advice.

Unfortunately I really do need to lose weight, and my previous efforts at just reducing the food I eat have not done any good.

I have foot and back problems, and my back doctor has gently suggested that losing weight would help. Years of binging on "comfort" foods when I get hypo symptoms have taken their toll.

So I am participating in a supervised program for one month. It's too expensive after that, but I plan to continue with the diet on my own. This one does allow a large amount of protein, unlike some others.

Have I stuck to the prescribed diet? No. I am eating fewer vegetables and more fat than they want me to. But I am apparently losing weight, although I suspect much of it was water weight the first week.

Some days I am also eating far less starch than I have in the past, and less than they allow on the diet. I feel better without it. Eating starch seems to make me hungry.

The thing I really have to watch is milk, because I have been in the habit of drinking it when I feel tired. Now I am trying to notice when I am tired because I am slightly dehydrated instead of hypoglycemic, and I am drinking water or tea instead.

I think it also helps that I am being so careful to avoid fructose-containing foods--no binging!

I may try the psyllium fiber some time in the future, but right now I want to be cautious about drastically increasing the fiber in my diet. Except for the zucchini reaction, my stomach is happier than it has been for some time.

Forgive me for posting all this nonsense in a public forum; I am hoping it might help someone else to know this is actually working for me. But unless someone has a better suggestion, it's back to the spinach!

[ukbill]

I was having horrible stomach problems to the point where I was unemployable..

That was why the doctor suggested we try Psyllium husks which transformed my life.. and no exaggeration!

Starch without Fibre (Rice / pasta) can cause a blood sugar spike similar to eating Glucose.. although the onset will be slower and the resulting hypo when the food has been digested and the blood sugar crashes down again.

I too put on a lot of weight if I drink milk.. When I was 21 I wanted to go for a training course on Hang Gliding which is extremely physical.. (you have to carry the Glider back up the hill when training..) I was doing at least 4,000 ft a day with 150 Ibs of Glider on my back!

I was only 10 stone ( 160Lbs) and 6'2" tall.. ie I made a stick look fat.

In 3 months I put on 48lbs by drinking 3 pints of milk a day (and 3 extra bacon sandwiches)

While on the course I was eating as much as I could physically eat in a day, and still lost 16 Lbs in the week!

So perhaps physical stuff might help too (I know how difficult that is with a bad back too)

Best of luck with the diet please let us know how you do as its useful for everyone with HFI to share insights into how things that are "normal" to non-HFI as so different to us with the condition.

[colormist]

Hi Kim,
I have been actively trying to control my weight (I don't need to lose much, but even losing a little is hard with HFI) for a couple years now. Speaking from experience, I think the first thing you need to do is to get your hypoglycemia under control. At least two weeks of not eating veggies and making 100% sure you don't have fructose somewhere in your diet (i.e. sneaky "natural flavoring").

After you get the hypoglycemia under control it gets a LOT easier.

The easiest way to diet for HFI is to focus on portion control and eating every few hours. This coupled with exercise will have the greatest impact on your health and weight.

For example, I love to garden. Before I head out to garden I have a bologna sandwich and a handful of chips. Clearly not a "healthy" food by normal diet recommendations. I then garden for 2-3 hours, go back inside, have another small snack (4-6 cheese & crackers), and start another chore (laundry, vacuuming, dusting, etc.) I keep moving. If it wasn't 90 degrees outside with 90% humidity, I might spend more time walking the dogs.

Just make sure to always eat something carbolicious with something that has a low glycemic index: www.nutricoach.net/low_gi_foods.html

[hfimomof3]

I too find that eating starch makes me hungry, and it also makes me rather shaky. I get the impression that because I can only eat "white"starch that it gets absorbed too quickly into the bloodstream and gives me a sugar high and then a sugar low.

I am not sure how you are going to get veggies while on an HFI diet. Even fairly harmless veggies are going to have some sugar so if you eat more of them then you may overdose on the fructose and become hypoglycemic. You could try substituting kale for the spinach but I find kale slightly sweet myself. I you do kale then you have to really cook it pretty well as it is quite tough in my opinion. How about red cabbage? I don't personally taste any sugar in it. There are also turnips and radishes. especially the young spring radishes are not TOO spicy. I also enjoy brussels sprouts fried unti lthey start to turn black then sprinkle with salt and pepper. I only eat the leafy outsides as the insides are a little sweet. Maybe also celery? I don't know, some peple might find that too sweet.

I always thought the point of the veggies was the fiber and the vitamins so if you can get artificial fiber that is safe for you, and vitamins from a pill, then I don't quite see why your doctors won't let you eat plain fiber. I find that if I eat too many veggies then I feel terrible.

Be careful and good luck.

[hfimomof3]

mushrooms?
canned baby corn (shoudl be non-sweet)?
bean sprouts?
water chestnuts?
bamboo shoots?
You could make a stir fry of just those things with soy sauce (if you are allowed soy sauce) and that shoudl give you lots of veggies and taste pretty good.

[ukbill]

mushrooms? Safe for me always.
canned baby corn (shoudl be non-sweet)? Ok in small amounts canning water discarded.
bean sprouts? NO I used to eat them and then wonder why i was ill?
water chestnuts? Safe for me always.
bamboo shoots? Safe for me always.
Small amounts of spinach deep fried = Chinese type seaweed
I add toasted sesame oil to add a little smokiness and Chinese 5 Spice powder (sugar free) as well.

Throw in a few shrimps or prawns and little cooked omelet shredded and its as good as any Chinese meal out and no picking out all the peas as I have to do when I buy a bought stir fry.

You could make a stir fry of just those things with soy sauce (if you are allowed soy sauce) and that shoudl give you lots of veggies and taste pretty good.

[JLW62]

"As we eat so little food that our body starts to use the body fat to provide energy (which is the purpose of a diet) our body's convert the body fat back into glucose and Fructose!"

Whoa, really? Is that why I feel so sick the day after intense exercise? I've been trying to figure that out forever. What are others' experience with this? And why snacks with a low glycemic index? Why not just some glucose?

Thanks for maybe clearing up a giant mystery.

[ukbill]

I personally am very much against an HFI eating any Glucose for several reasons..

The main reason is I do not believe it is pure enough.. however the small amounts of Fructose in the glucose while not being enough to cause a reaction (Hypoglysemia) it will knock you back the following days and damage your liver and kidneys in the process.

Some of the stuff that is legally sold as 100% pure contains 40% other sugars!

It also rots your teeth like acid!

Another very good reason not to eat Glucose is because if you are HFI then you really need to avoid anything sweet tasting..

The ability to taste very low levels of sugar in foods is an essential skill if you want to live as "normal" a life as possible and be able to eat out in restaurants, hotels etc. without having to ask the waiter / chef what has sugar in and what doesn't. I hate having to do that.

If you are used to eating sweet tasting foods how can you tell?

All this is a little off subject but relevant to safe ingredient in a way

I'm glad I may have answered a question for you.. that's what this site is so dam good at. us all sharing experiences.

[colormist]

And why snacks with a low glycemic index? Why not just some glucose?

Glucose is going to cut off the shaking really quick, but your blood sugar will spike and then plummet very quickly, making you ravenous again. If you eat something with a low glycemic index, you'll stave off hunger longer because it digests more slowly.

If you eat one of the other, you'll have problems with binging. But if you eat both a carb and a low-glycemic, then your body will process the carb quickly (ending the issue with blood sugar drop after exercise and preventing over eating) and the low-glycemic food will burn off slowly, maintaining your blood sugar until it's time for your next meal. Something like a couple saltine crackers with cheese would work fine.

[ukbill]

Colormist..

That's a far more intelligent answer than mine and right on the money for accuracy too ..

Can I borrow your brain? its far better than mine.. ;D

[colormist]

LOL@ Bill. I recently sat through an all day training session about glycemic foods. It was the only "diet" I've heard about that seems accessible to those with HFI--and made sense.

[esmee]

hi ukbill,

i am fascinated to learn that body fat is converted back into fructose and glucose. do you have a reference for this?

whenever i go on a fast, which i had done quite a lot of since food always makes me feel like crap, and i did not know about HFI, i will get a headache, nausea, and vomiting within the first 2-3 days. This happen 100% of the time that I do a water fast. But after that, I am fine. I only know of one other person that has this same experience and they, too, seem to be fructose intolerant to some extent.

It takes 2-3 days for the body to start converting body fat into ketones. So, I am thinking that maybe the reason i get so violently ill at the beginning of a fast is because of the fructose being created for energy. I am guessing that once ketones start being produced, fructose production must drop off because i never feel sick after that initial phase. But the terrible reaction i get during the first 2-3 days is identical to what happens if i have a low blood sugar crash from eating fructose and not being able to eat a safe food to balance it out before my blood sugar crashes.

[ukbill]

"i am fascinated to learn that body fat is converted back into fructose and glucose. do you have a reference for this?"

Again I will have to look out the references for this when I have time.

I have no knowledge of Ketone's being produced, so far as I have read after the body has used up the Glycogen, which is the bodies initial immediate energy stored in the Liver, we then start to convert fat back into blood sugar.

I am only dimly aware of the chemical process but the stuff I have read on the process says that as fat is converted back into blood sugar (Glucose) a percentage is converted into Fructose.

This explains why if I have to do heavy exercise I quickly go Hypo if I have not eaten a few 1,000 calories in the last 24 hours.

On reflection regarding the comment made by hfimomof3 about starches giving her a high followed by a hypo crash.

If the said starches were consumed with a good amount of non-digestible fibre (like Psyllium husks.. ok here I go again.. ) then the rate of digestion would be slowed dow a lot so smoothing out the rise and drop in blood sugar levels.

There are two main versions of the Psyllium husks one is milled whole husks and the other is very finely ground powder.

I have tried the powder once but found it far too difficult to mix with milk to make a drink.

However if it were added to flour..... and used in cooking (ie Bread) I can only see good results so far as digestion is concerned.. not sure what alterations to fluid adding to recipe might be needed but will order some when I get chance and try it.

It could also be added to the warm milk before adding to potatoes when mashing them. etc..

[charlie]

Bill,
you and your psyllium husk.....

Tried Meg with a bit, but prob the wrong way, or shouldn't have told her what it was but she spat it out but that was in her ready brek. Anyway, actually thinking about it bread may work as I spotted it as an ingredient in one of the gluten free bread loaves, I think it was the Tesco brand. So might give that a go.

I'll try and help out with the glycogen, glucose metabolism when I have the time, need to just refresh my notes from my osteopathic medicine training to make sure got it right. May take a while as no spare time due to trying to keep up with all these posts...!!!!?? ;D

[esmee]

I am 100% sure that body fat gets converted into ketones after the first 2-4 days on a fast (it happens more quickly with men than women). This is the only reason humans can fast for over a month with no ill effects. the reason it take time to start is beacuse certain enzymes sytems have to be initiated to make the conversion.

but it is quite possible that glycogen stores, which typically last for 24 hours after the last meal, are converted back into fructose and glucose and this, too could explain why HFI-er feel so incredibly bad when they miss a meal (as it actually precipitates a hypoglycemic episode).

[sm]

You can also buy psyllium capsules from Solgar. Although a bit expensive they are much easier to swallow.

[ukbill]

You must take them with plenty of fluids they do swell up a lot.

I make a milk shake like a Lassi (if I have spelt that right?)

I mix milk and plain Yoghurt in a glass and add my 1 1/2 teaspoons full and mix .

Its best if I leave it for 10 min to bulk out and mix again otherwise it has a habit of sitting in the foam at the top of the glass and staying in the glass after drinking..

Some people seem to be having problems with plain Yoghurt..

I wonder if it getting contaminated in the packaging plant? I mean who can tell the difference by looking at vanilla (with added sugar) and plain?

The stuff I buy is pot cured or set in the pot type yoghurt.

Hope this helps ?