Vegetarianism

[tikitavi]

This is interesting - I have been eating a little meat the last few days, and I haven't noticed any change in my weight or bodyfat. So I wonder if my slimmer figure has more to do with really cutting out the fructose and sucrose (and dextrose), rather than cutting out the meat?

[tikitavi]

I found some info on the sucrose and fructose content of seitan:
www.daskochrezept.de/bundeslebensmittelschluessel/naehrwerte/glutenfleisch-milchnass_J415000_6.html
Fructose (Fruchtzucker) 59 mg/100g
Saccharose (Rübenzucker) 36 mg/100g

So it's actually VERY low in both, very safe! That's great! I might retry vegetarianism again then, and in addition to locally raised, pastured eggs and 100% grassfed raw dairy, I might try making seitan again (I used to make it all the time!). That might be a nice way to add more protein and be able to have more options in menu making!

[ukbill]

Just a point worth mentioning.

I have a sedimentary life stile I sit driving a car for 50+ hours a week and do (in the winter) very little in the way of exercise.

I eat massive amounts of fat both animal fat and vegetable variety. (I am careful as to which fats as some veg fats really give me a kicking)

I do not have a problem with my weight or general health, and my cholesterol is not too high either!

IF you are able to get meats you feel happy eating (even if in small amounts) I suggest you try to get something that contains animal liver.

If you know a good butcher he could make for you some burgers for example so you do not "see" the liver which I admit can be off putting.

I think Liver is a key ingredient in meat loaf as well if I remember right.. and easy meal to cook for HFI

I always smile at people who say things like "UGG you eat animal offal!" well yes and then no.

I do not eat bought burgers particularly from a certain major chain as I know what is in them .. they say 100% beef they really REALLY mean it!

In their burgers you are eating parts of an animal that would have even a confirmed carnivore such as me puking everywhere!

So its in the appearance of the thing which is important.

The Liver is full of vitamins and minerals that are essential for health.

I prefer to eat liver at least once a week than risk taking expensive vitamin tablets with unknown providence as to Fructose contamination.

Just an idea..

[esmee]

what kinds of symptoms do you get after eating vegetable fats, ukbill?

[tikitavi]

I do not do well with vegetable fats either. I just use locally raised, 100% grassfed raw milk butter instead.

I used to have chicken liver on a regular basis, but then I realized in Cron-o-meter that my vitamin A levels were getting too high. So I had to stop eating liver. I do enjoy other organ meats though, especially heart. It is very high in coenzyme Q10 and other nutrients.

I have been re-attempting the vegetarianism since Feb 5. I really feel great, except that after about 10 days or so, I seem to keep getting the same weird symptoms: eyelid twitches, seeing "stars" in my field of vision, achey gums. That just happened again last night and this morning, so I think I have to give up on vegetarianism again, unfortunately. Unless I can figure out what's missing and find a safe food to replace it!

Also I wanted to mention that I do think a lot of supposedly plain meats and fish are not safe, they've been injected with brines or "natural flavors". That is one of the main reasons I was trying vegetarianism again. I was having fructose reactions to plain meat and fish, even meats I had gotten directly from the farmer. I think it happens in processing, so the farmers have no control over it.

So, if I do add meats back in again, I will stick to just whole meats (loins, roasts, organs), straight from the farmer. That seems safer than ground meat products and other items that could have other things added in processing.

It's very frustrating though. For one, plain meat should just be meat! If there's anything else added, they should HAVE to list it! Argh! And it's also frustrating because I don't want to eat meat and fish for ethical reasons. And I know that dairy and eggs have ethical problems too. So there's no perfect answer.

[ukbill]

Esmee,

It depends on the oil.. some I seem fine with others..not so good.

Soy oil is really bad for me I get a depressed blood sugar level. (not tested only symptomatic assumption) but not a real "crash" mostly its really bad gas and cramps with the general feeling of not being good.

Canola oil is the same, however with Veg oils it is common to blend them even the oils that claim to be 100% pure!
So it might be contamination with Soy that is the problem.

Olive oil is commonly diluted with Hazelnut oil even the Extra Virgin olive oils are frequently mixed with cheaper oils to allow a lower selling price. Generally I am fine with olive oil.

I cook with Oil seed rape oil. (Yes its called Rape and its a form of cabbage the seeds of which are 48% oil) and Ground nut oil made from peanuts.

However this has recently become Very expensive in the UK so I use this sparingly.

Sunflower oil seems good too but is quite "heavy" and is not good for frying say rice (for stir fried rice dishes)

Cooking with olive oil is not easy because food sticks to the pan (I don't use non stick pans.. I don't like eating the stuff when it starts flaking off.)

However I found a way round this.. I add a nob of unsalted butter to the olive oil.. and the food stops sticking.

Why I have no idea but it works.

Hope this helps?

Tikitavi

Eggs in the UK are now mostly Free range where the health of the chicken is far better, the chickens can run around a field and perch and lay their eggs in nesting boxes which contain straw.

They also eat a much better diet.

Can you not buy whole fish and fillet them yourself? That would remove the chances of it being "pumped up" with a brine of some sort?

[esmee]

Thanks for detail, ukbill. Soy oil is really bad for you all the way around, so not loss there, lol...rape seed oil is actually canola oil, not cabbage seed oil. in the US they did not think the name rape seed would go over too well for obvious reasons, so they invented the name canola which is a trademark.

tikitavi--it is actually really difficult to overdose on vitamin A. the levels on CRON-O-Meter are simple RDAs, not toxic levels. I don't think you could do yourself any harm by eating liver once a week. The only really overdose of vitamin A was recorded in some arctic explorers who ate a bunch of polar bear liver which is expremely high in vitamin A. they exploreers did get quite ill, but they all recovered. no one has ever died for vitamin A toxicity, despite what some authorities claim (I know this for a fact because my former employer did a review of all the literature on this issue). I have known people who take upwards of 100,000 iu per day for extended periods (i am not suggesting you do this!) and they are using very high doses to treat lung cancer.

I am experimenting with organic whole milk yogurt again after being off it for about 5 years. My body digests it really well, but it makes me terribly constipated. I need to get some of the enzymes you recommended to see if this helps things. I am also currently experimenting with psyllium per ukbill's recommendation to see if this will help things, but the verdict is still out on this one. I think it is very difficult to eat fructose-free without using animal products of one kind or another.

[tikitavi]

Esmee, I should be more specific and say that I was overdosing on Retinol. I can't remember the exact number, but I read some studies that demonstrated that high intake of Retinol can cause bone problems.

UKBill, I think even whole fish fillets are still pumped full of things to "preserve" their color and "freshness". :-(

[tikitavi]

I'm thinking of picking up a multivitamin that I used to take without a reaction, rather than adding meat back in my diet. Mostly because I've had fructose reactions to meat (and fish) so I don't trust them to be just meat with no other undisclosed ingredients!

[esmee]

Retinol is just preformed vitamin A, unlike carotenes which must be converted to Retinol. Retinol is only found in animal foods, while carotenes are only found in plant foods. The comments I made in my previous post still stand. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that you would take in too much vitamin A/Retinol from a natural food like liver only eating once a week. Dr. Max Gerson who developed a diet therapy to heal cancer gave his patient 3 liver/carrot juices per day. 1/2 lbs of liver was used for each juice and the patients were consuming over 100,000 IU per day and they never had any symptoms of toxicity.

[tikitavi]

Here's some of the studies that I'd read about showing the link between high retinol intake and higher incidence of hip fractures:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21035577

www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0303c.shtml

"Harvard Medical School researchers reported that high vitamin A intake raises the risk for hip fracture in postmenopausal women. The data suggest that the main culprit is retinol, the active form of the vitamin. Retinol is found in supplements, liver, eggs, full-fat dairy products, fish liver oils, and fortified foods such as cereals and skim milk.

"Since then, other studies have linked excess retinol to decreased bone strength and greater fracture risk — especially at the hip. The consistency of this evidence suggests that older men and women should consider limiting their retinol-derived vitamin A, particularly from supplements.

"A long-term Swedish study found that men with high blood levels of retinol had a risk for hip fracture double that of subjects with average levels. Beta-carotene levels were not associated with increased risk. Also, people whose daily vitamin A consumption was more than 5,000 IU (International Units) per day had a hip fracture risk about double that of participants whose intake was less than 1,666 IU per day."

Since I am already using grassfed dairy products as well as pastured eggs, when I added liver to that, it put my retinol intake in a risky range.

[esmee]

Interesting. Thank you for the reference. Just remember that association does not always equal cause. A diet high in animal protein (where retinol is found) may also be a risk factor.

[tikitavi]

Since the 5th, I have been not eating any meat or fish! Mostly because they often seem to give me a fructose reaction. I think they are treated with brines or "natural flavors" that are not labeled. At any rate, without the meat, I am feeling really good!

I am taking ascorbyl palmitate (fat-soluble vitamin C) and high-dose vitamin D. I still haven't picked up a multivitamin yet. I'm not sure it's really needed. I will keep an eye on things in Cronometer and also keep up on my daily journal to see if it's necessary. But I am feeling really well and not having any foot cramps (which is usually my cue that something is not right).

I am waiting to take a VAP cholesterol test since my local pharmacy cholesterol test showed some question-raising numbers. My triglycerides and HDL were great, blood pressure is great, blood glucose level great, but my total cholesterol and LDL were very high. So I am going to get a VAP cholesterol test on the 1st which tells whether the LDL is pattern A ("large, bouyant" - good) or pattern B ("small,dense" - bad). Here's some more on that:

"LDL exists as a spectrum of particles consisting of small, dense molecules and large, buoyant ones. Recent evidence suggests that the small, dense particles increase the risk of coronary artery disease by as much as 4 times relative to the larger particles. In fact, direct measurement of LDL is recommended by the NCEP ATP III for most accurate risk stratification.

"This VAP test also measures your Lp(a), (Lipoprotein "A") class. The Lp(a) marker is associated with an increased genetic risk of atherosclerosis.

"In addition, it measures HDL, LDL and VLDL subclasses with an assessment of the LDL density pattern. Additional measurements are made for the apoB100, LDL-R, Lp(a) Cholesterol and IDL Cholesterol."

So that should be a more definitive test to see if my cholesterol levels are more risky. I do take continuous oral contraceptives, which could be a risk factor. So if my LDL is the "bad" kind, I am considering quitting the oral contraceptives for cardiovascular safety.

Also, I'm wondering if a "cheat" I had the night before the cholesterol test might have skewed the results. I got hungry at work, and munched on some Lay's plain potato chips, because I'd read here that most people are OK with them. Well, not me!! I had a HORRIBLE reaction, I felt like I was going to die. When I looked up potato chips in the German database, they are VERY high in sucrose and on the high side of fructose, for me:
www.daskochrezept.de/bundeslebensmittelschluessel/naehrwerte/kartoffelchips-verzehrsfertig_K280111_6.html
Fructose (Fruchtzucker) 406 mg/100g
Saccharose (Rübenzucker) 812 mg/100g

So I think it's likely that having those potato chips the evening before, might have messed up my cholesterol results for the next morning. We'll see when I have the VAP test on the 1st. I'll be careful to only eat my regular diet till then, no exceptions!

[tikitavi]

I took my VAP cholesterol test yesterday! They did a blood draw from the arm and it was easy! No problem, unlike the previous ones I tried with finger tests. The medical technician said it's common to have problems getting blood from the fingers, she has that problem herself.

I'll share my results when I get them! I have been keeping super strict zero fructose and sucrose, and lacto-ovo vegetarian.

[tikitavi]

I posted the VAP results under the Fructose Intake = High Cholesterol thread. My results were not affected by fructose, apparently.

I had to give up on the vegetarianism. A friend of mine who is a cattle rancher gifted me with some of her beef!

[tikitavi]

As I'm using up the gifted beef, I've been doing more research on low-fructose veganism. I'd like to get back to it for so many reasons. For one, I am rather concerned about my high cholesterol levels, although it is the "large, bouyant" type, which is good, for some reason it still worries me. Also, many of my friends are vegetarian and vegan and so it would be nice to have meals in common (although, their meals are usually VERY fruit/veggie based). Also, I appreciate the ethics of allowing animals their freedom.

I did a lot of research on sugar content of various foods, which I've posted under "Safe Ingredient Listings", under the posts "Sugar Content of Various Flours" and also "Sugar Content of Vegetables".

This is kind of like re-discovering the wheel for me! Back when I was vegan, my diet was made up of lentils, seitan, white pasta, millet, mushrooms, and rice. I instinctively avoided fruits and veggies except for VERY tiny amounts. I did sometimes have small amounts of spinach too. And now I'm finding that seems to be exactly what is safe for HFI! I also ate nutritional yeast, which seemed to be OK, but I have not found any solid data yet on it. It does seem to cause problems with candida, so it might be best to avoid it.

But, I very much appreciate the ethics of buying locally, and directly from my local farmers. Local farmers do not grow grains and beans, but _do_ raise grass-fed and pastured animals and dairy. And entirely grass-fed animals actually replenish the soil, in contrast to the growing of beans and grains. So I'm torn!

[esmee]

I will be very interested to see how you do if you go back down that road.
I have been eating a diet exclusively of rice and leafy greens for 2 months now and feeling sooooooo much better than when I was ingesting a high fructose vegan diet based. I know my tolerance for fructose is definitely higher than yours though, so I am curious to see how you feel if you try the vegan path with the foods you have highlighted above.

[jenni]

Just curlous how did the veganism tun out? Have you stuck with it? I

[stefaniebillette]

Dr. Tolan ' site, while helpful, seems outdated.

[ukbill]

Although I have grave doubts about the sense in being Vegetarian and HFI I have some hopefully good advice that might help reduce the high fructose load you are imparting on yourself.

The way you prepare and cook your food will make a major difference to the Fructose load you ingest.

Firstly when cooking any Vegetables either soak them in lots of water for a few hours before cooking to allow as much Fructose as possible to leach out into the water, then for high sugar items (like potatoes) par boil in salted water (lots of it) change the water and cook through or finish cooking other ways.

Sliced potatoes soaked and par boiled can then be used in fried potato dishes, roast potatoes, and in layered pies or to top off a stew and cooked for a few min with the top off to cook the potatoes and brown them in the oven.
Cubed potatoes soaked and par boiled as above can be boiled in clean fresh water and made into excellent mash potatoes.. particularly if you add warmed cream and butter with salt and black pepper. You should only be using potatoes recommended as for mashing anyway the floury type are by far the best. no method of soaking or cooking will reduce the Fructose load of "Waxy" type potatoes to a point where they are safe.

Other green vegetables (spinach, savoy cabbage, spring cabbage, etc etc) the sugar seems to be stored in the white stalks, stems and / or veins in the leaves. Vegetables that have a large bubous root seem to store more of their reserves (as sugar) in the root (beetroot, parsnip, carrot etc) while veg with no large root to store their reserves in seem to have sweeter stems and stalks.

I have not tried eating the green tops of carrots or parsnips but I see no reason why they should be a problem particularly if we remove the stem and trim any large veins out of the leaves. I have eaten turnip leaves without a problem before, although they have little to no taste. Parsnip and carrot leaves might be a lot better though. Be sure to wash them thoroughly to remove any spray chemical residue which will be far higher in the leaves than in the root I would expect.

Be careful of digestible fibre and try to keep your consumption of this to a minimum. I know I have mentioned this many many times but a reader might not have had the hours required to read many of the useful posts on this forum so I will repeat it again here. digestible Fibre is converted in the intestine into sucrose! Not good!

I can assure any HFI person the lower you take your Fructose load the healthier and happier you will become.. not to mention fasting Hypo's become a thing of the past. I can go 12+ hours if I've been good in the past few days without any worries or even feeling more than slightly hungry! No more having to carry a supply of HFI safe food around with me.. well to be honest it was not very safe.. hence needing to top up all the time. This was usually sunflower seeds and crisps (chips to our American friends) and the odd pork pie or sausage roll (I cannot stand them now have eaten several lifetimes worth of them!)

Herbs and spices contain a little sugar but the amount of fructose compared to the wonderful flavour imparted into the food is well worth it! I prefer to use herbs and spices to flavour my food than eat vegetables and get the same or higher Fructose load.

Most of my family are Vegetarian and I wish I could be a veggie too but my partner is having enough problems dealing with me only eating meat and rice / pasta / potatoes so going veggie would be a step too far for both of us.

You mention basil! I love it and make my own pesto (I always react to bought pesto) it is wonderful on pasta and on steak too!

To make it get fresh basil leaves (you can grow it on your windowsill easily) just using the leaves make a BIG heap of them on a chopping board.

Put a large knob of butter into the center of the leaves and a little olive oil, add sea salt (normal salt will do) and black pepper and grate a generous helping of a hard cheese on top, any hard cheese like Parmesan will do .. not the hard rind left on the cheese because you forgot to cover it up.. thats for cheese on toast

Then take a sharp chopping knife and chop the leaves up folding the outer leaves into the middle and chop until its all smooth, a food blender can be used but you loos a lot of the pesto on the blades and stuff.

It can keep in a fridge for a day or two and be frozen of course if used within a month or so.

Adding a few flakes of chili can really pep it up too!

You will need a crazy amount of leaves to make a reasonable amount but the result is absolutely fantastic.

Have you tried Italian Potato Gnocchi or any other potato dumplings? they are wonderful and although neutral in taste (they are supposed to adsorb the meat and sauce juices on the plate they are wonderful with the pesto recipe above.

The rind of Lemon and Lime can be used to flavour foods with very low fructose load also so nice none sweet puddings as well.

If a recipe calls for Celery use a tiny amount of Celery Seeds (available on line) they are very powerful celery flavour so you only need a small pinch of them.. they are great mixed with butter salt and pepper and pushed under the skin of a roast chicken for example.

hope this helps?