Vegetarianism

[tikitavi]

We touched upon vegetarianism a bit last week and I wanted to start a thread for more discussion. I've been thinking about it a lot lately, for many reasons, including ethical, but also for social reasons since I've been cooking a lot for friends who are overwhelmingly vegetarian.

I mentioned before, I was vegan for many years, and I managed to do it fairly low-fructose by concentrating on homemade seitan and simple grains like millet. But in order to eat more locally, I welcomed omnivorism again and started incorporating locally raised, 100% grassfed meats and dairy into my diet.

Now lately after the discussion on here, I am starting to reconsider a vegetarian diet (not vegan though) again and have been pretty much vegetarian for the last two weeks. I am eating eggs (locally raised and free range) and locally raised, 100% grassfed raw dairy. And I've been feeling great, and have lost a few pounds too, which surprised me. I don't know if it has to do with not eating meat, or because I'm being so much more careful about fructose and sucrose, but at any rate, I really am very happy about how I feel and look now! Of course, I still have an ethical problem with dairy and eggs, too, but there's only so much that I can do while trying to maintain a very, very low sucrose and fructose intake.

I posted in another thread what I'm eating lately. I've been doing my best to keep my fructose intake down to under 100mg per day, and trying to keep my sucrose as low as well. My menu has been lots of good wholesome dairy, eggs, and some small amounts of white flour products (although I know that it has some fructose and sucrose so I try to keep it down). I am not eating any fruits or veggies, nuts or seeds, at all, because of the sucrose and fructose. I have been having some mushrooms, which according to most databases, seem to be zero fructose and sucrose, so should be safe, and might provide some extra nutrients too.

I know it is probably much healthier to be eating some meat/fish, and certainly much more in tune with our ancestral diets, at least if our ancestors were from cold, northern regions. And I did notice last night and this morning I started having twinges of foot cramping, which I used to have back in my vegan days all the time. So, I'm keeping an eye on it and trying to approach this with care and healthfulness in mind.

[esmee]

Hi there!

Great idea for a thread. This disorder does make vegetarianism a bit more of a challange, and veganism a serious challange, especially if you cannot eat more than 100 mg of fructose a day.

Even though I had been a vegan for most of my adult life, I did return to goat milk yogurt (first) and meat (later) because they were the only foods my body would accept. At the time I knew nothing about fructose intolerance, but I accidentally back into a low fructose way of eating with both of those diets. Now I understand why they worked.

Like you, I am experiementing and seeing how I feel. Right now I am eating a vegan low fructose diet of white rice, chia seeds, spinach, mushrooms, collards, and celery juice. These few foods are surprisingly rich in protein and nutrients. I am still getting some fructose with the veggies, but it is significantly less than I have been consuming over the past 2 years and from age 16 to 35 (when I was vegan). The only time I have been low fructose was childhood (as an omnivore) and for 4 years from age 35 to 39 (on either a yogurt or meat based diet).

I would love to be able to make a vegan diet work and still get all of my nutrients and feel good, but I am not so attached to the idea that I would forfeit my health if I felt including animal products would be beneficial for me. I cannot eat eggs, so they are not an option for me. Goat milk yogurt is a possibility, and perhaps soft fresh goat or sheep cheeses as well. I have been considering fish again (this would not be vegetarian obviously).

From everything I have read, I really do not feel that dairy is the best food for humans after the age of weaning, especially not cow's milk. But, I think a lot depends on the genetics a person has received from their ancestors. If you come from a long line of milk consuming people then you are more likely to have the metabolic pathways to properly digest it.

If I have learned nothing else from all of my dietary experiments, it is that we are all different and must figure out what works best for each of us as individuals and not try to fit ourselves into someone elses idealistic box of what they think is right or wrong, either from an ethical standpoint or a physiological standpoint.

I honestly do feel that both vegetarianism and (even more so) veganism are artificial human constructs that have developed because we have splintered away from out families and have turned to our pets for emotional fulfillment. It is very easy to slide over from our pets to all animals. I am not saying this is a "wrong" development, just that it is a fairly "new" development for which there is no real precedent in all of human history.

Every culture on earth eats animal products, though for some it is limited to dairy only. Therefore, we need to listen to our bodies and be respectful of what they tell us, and not feel guilty if they tell us we need something more than just rice and veggies.

In my opinion, eggs are one of the best choices. They are loaded with nutrients and high quality protein, and if the chickens or duck are raised in an ethical manner, it produces the least harm to other living creatures. Unfortuanately, I have not done well with eggs in the past but I may see if some enzymes could help me with this.

esmée ♥

[esmee]

i wanted to add that if i could not eat any veggies at all, like you, i would defintely include dairy for the minerals. i think it becomes a necessity at that point.

[tikitavi]

Thanks for your input, Esmee!

I have been doing some number crunching on the databases. It looks like that besides mushrooms, there are two other safe veggies for me: basil and spinach. They each have 100mg or less of both sucrose and fructose. So that will be fun to do some more experimentation!

I was noticing in Fineli that bread flour actually has 300mg of sucrose in addition to 100mg of fructose. That might explain why I feel sick when I eat more than small amounts of it! I never really looked carefully at sucrose before since I assumed I just had FM. But sucrose definitely seems to affect me just as badly. Looks like light refined rye flour is lower, 200mg sucrose and 100mg fructose. BUT, I have no idea on how to cook with rye flour.

It looks like pasta is safe, under 100mg of both sucrose and fructose. So that's good!

[colormist]

Watch what type of spinach it is! Winter spinach has much more sugar in it than the in-season variety.

[gretchen]

Like Esmee, I eat a vegan diet and am just going as low in fructose as i can. I am also relying on white rice, spinach and collards, mushrooms, chia seeds and walnuts. I also eat degermed corn, and occasionally millet. Checking my nutrient intake on cronometer assures me that I am meeting my nutritional needs, and so far it feels very satisfying.

I would rather be healthy than be vegan, but I'd love to be able to do both.

Cronometer says that my sugar intake is 4 g on this regimen, and I'm assuming that 2 g of that is fructose. I know that's way higher than many here can handle, but it's lower than I've ever eaten before and is feeling really good for me.

I have tried eating animal products, but I don't feel that well on them either. I think my body is sensitive to the break-down products of animal foods as well as fructose.

Colormist, I tried some Bloomsdale (heirloom) spinach this winter, and it tasted so sweet to me that I didn't even finish the bag I'd gotten at the farmer's market. Now I stick with baby spinach.

[tikitavi]

Oh, maybe spinach isn't safe for me then, since I am super sensitive. I'll just experiment with basil maybe!

gretchen, be careful with walnuts - I got so sick from them! I realize now it's because they are super high in sucrose, 2200mg per 100g!
www.fineli.fi/food.php?foodid=376&lang=en

[esmee]

100 gm of nuts is 3.5 oz. and most people do not eat that many nuts. If you only ate 0.5 oz it would be about 400-500 mg of fructose. this might still be way too much for you, tikitavi, but it might be okay for someone like gretchen.

on Dr. Tolan's sight he says that most people with HFI must keep their fructose intake at no more than 40 mg per kg of body weight. so, for myself who weighs 110 lbs/50 kg that is exactly 2,000 mg or 2 gm of fructose per day.

If a person is smaller than I or bigger than I then the level of tolerance might increase or decrease accordingly. however, your own body is you best informant!

[gretchen]

Oh, those are both really good to know. I didn't realize that walnuts were so high in sugar, thanks for letting me know that, Titikavi. I do eat a very small amount of them - I tend to eat a low fat diet, and I make sure that I get enough omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acids in, so sometimes I will include walnuts for the omega 6.

And esmee, that's also really good info, and seems to be about right for me too. I don't know if I have HFI or some other kind of fructose intolerance, but I seem to be okay when I limit my fructose to a 2 grams (though I'm larger than you and could eat a little more according to that formula). Of course like many here I may find that I feel better eating even less fructose, but it's hard to do unless I give up eating a vegan diet, and I'm not quite ready to do that yet.

[tikitavi]

Wow, he recommends up to 2g per day? That seems soooo high to me. I would be so sick! I wonder what limit they recommend for FM then?

So far so good on the ovo-lacto-vegetarianism! I think I might still eat some meat occasionally though. For one, my freezer is full of it! And I spent a lot of money on it, since it is all locally holistically raised, 100% grassfed. But also for health too. I was thinking maybe once a week. We'll see!

[esmee]

gretchen--

i am not sure if you noticed in Dr. Lyons book he recommends consuming twice as much omega 3 as omega 6. He is the first doctor i have seen to recomend this ratio. Most doctor originall were recommending a 1:4 ratio, Novick says 1:1. So, Lyons is really taking a stand here by recommending MORE omega 3 than 6 and, apparently, he has gotten really good clinical results with this ratio in his patients.

[gretchen]

Oh wow, I hadn't noticed that, thanks for letting me know. I always aim for between 1:1 and 1:4 omega 3:6. I'm not sure if I want to change to more omega 3 than 6 based on just a single doctor's recommendation, but I could be persuaded by reading about his results I suppose. Is that in his other book about omega's?

[esmee]

I do not know. I have not read it. I am assuming he must be seeing results or he would not be recommending it. I could be wrong though. It might be worth experimenting with and just see how you feel. I have been eating 2-3 tbsp of chia seeds per day for the past 3 weeks and, in spite of consuming more omega 6 fats from avocado for the first 2 weeks of that, I had a very light, almost pain-free period. My ratio was 1:1 during my avo experiment, but has been 3:2 for the past week with no avo. I really think the ratio of fat is just as important as the quantity of fat in how our hormones are affected.

[tikitavi]

I just wanted to update, I'm still sticking with the vegetarianism and feeling great! My weight has continued to be a few pounds lower and my bodyfat has dropped a few tenths of a percentage too from where it was previously! I am not sure if that is due to not eating meat, or being so strict about avoiding all sugars (fructose, sucrose and dextrose). I think it is due to the not eating meat, though, since that is more in line timing-wise. I didn't need to lose any weight or bodyfat, but I do like feeling so slim and strong! FYI, my bodyfat percentage is now 21.6%, which is pretty good for a 40 yr old woman!

The first few days I was having some minor foot cramps, but that's not happening any longer. I think it's because at first I was drinking too much milk, which was throwing off my sodium/potassium balance. I've gone back down to the amount of milk I was drinking previously (just one small glass at breakfast), and that seems perfect.

My meals are made up of all homemade items like: unsweetened, no-topping French toast made with homemade bread; cream of mushroom soup made with local milk; cheese soup made with local milk and cheese; homemade "buttermilk" biscuits (I just use regular milk, not buttermilk); mushroom cream pasta; pasta with butter and grated cheese; no-topping pancakes; macaroni and cheese; scrambled eggs; glass of milk at breakfast, otherwise water to drink all day. I am still using all 100% grassfed, raw, locally and holistically raised dairy, and free range local eggs. Next time I'm at the grocery store, I am going to experiment with using basil, apparently that is one veggie that is likely safe!

I am really happy with eating this way - I kind of feel like "Heidi" on the Alps, drinking my fresh, grassfed milk along with good homemade bread and butter!

[gretchen]

Titkava, that's great! You sound like you're doing really well. I love the Heidi reference too - that was one of my favorite books as a child :-)

I used to get foot cramps all the time when I was a big dairy consumer, so I was interested to see that you connect yours with dairy too. I assumed it was something to do with the calcium/magnesium balance, but I never explored it any further.

[esmee]

I think we need a new name for your diet, tikitavi.

Is it possible to be a "vegetarian" if you do not eat any vegetables, LOL?!

Hmmm, I will have to give this some thought...

(please, do NOT take me seriously I am only kidding with you)

I think the dairy & foot cramps is more likely to be a calcium/magnesium issue also, rather than sodium/potassium. since you cannot eat any greens at all (magnesium-rich), you may want to consider adding a magnesium supplement (magnesium citrate is the best form). over 450 enzyme systems in the body require adequate magnesium and it is very important for cardiovascular health.

you can enter you foods into cron-o-meter and it will show you which nutrients you might be deficient in. it is generall recommended to consume calcium and magnesium in a 2:1 ratio (2 parts calcium to 1 part magnesium at minimum).

[tikitavi]

Yes, I've been using Cronometer for years, so I know my mineral balance for magnesium and calcium is good. I don't think it's a magnesium issue. I am pretty sure it is tied to sodium, because my salt intake seems to really affect it! As long as I don't use much added salt at all, and don't have too much milk, I am fine.

[tikitavi]

P.S. And yes, having been vegan for so long, I am used to being made fun of for not eating vegetables. My friends and now-husband would always pick fun during my vegan years, calling me "the vegetarian who does not eat vegetables".

[tikitavi]

Well, I had to give up on the vegetarianism. I was starting to feel very weird yesterday and have some strange symptoms. So I cooked up some of the good local & holistically raised, grassfed meat in my freezer, and felt much better. I guess I _do_ need a little meat after all. I am glad that I can find ethically raised products here!

[gretchen]

I'm glad you're feeling better, and it's great that you can find ethically raised animal products in your area. I guess you'll have to go day by day and see what level of consumption feels best for you.