Pasta and Rice are safe

[ukbill]

Ok there is some very poor "research" out there that is worrying people a lot.

In short this "research" "proves" that Rice and Pasta cause type 2 diabetes. As a result of which some HFI'ers and parents of HFI children have stopped feeding them this really safe healthy form of carbs.

I can prove absolutely this "research" is either fake or just terribly done.

in Italy everyone lives on Pasta and Rice and eat it every single day at least once a day.. so do they have a problem with diabetes?
No they actually have the lowest level of diabetes in the whole of Europe!
In China, India and the whole area there are well over 1/2 the worlds population who all live on white rice and pasta as their staple carbs.. Do they have any issues with diabetes?
Well they did not no.. not until recently (the last 30 years) when the problem has become ever more prevalent having been almost totally absent before then.
If you bother to check the uptake of HFCS in those areas you will see a (not) suppressing link between the increase in consumption of HFCS and other highly refined sugars containing Fructose and the increase in type 2 diabetes and obesity in those areas.

I suspect that the "research" that indicates it is pasta and rice that is causing the problem was funded in some round about way, by the sugar industry who like the Oil, tobacco and Asbestos industries spend a fortune in producing "favourable" "research" that distracts people from the real culprits who are killing people, just so they can sell more product.
This may sound cynical but all the historical evidence shows this is the case.

So my advice is relax and feed / eat pasta, rice etc as often as you like to HFI people, and do not be worried by poor "research" that should have been dismissed as fake or just plain stupid when 1st presented.

It is not the 1st time dietary advice has been influenced by poor research / lobbing by the sugar industry. in the early 1960's the sugar industry persuaded the UK government to fund and deliver a pamphlet to every single household in the UK that stated ALL children need to eat refined sugar as an "essential" food group. It stated that children not fed sugar would be sickly and weak.. It said it was "essential" that all children were fed sugar!

Just as now we are told it is "essential" to eat 5 portions of fruit and veg a day.. and include a glass of fruit juice (20+% sugar) is a "portion" of fruit or veg!

YEH RIGHT!

It is time long past time for the dietary establishment to reevaluate their potentially dangerous advice.

What is important is to eat 5 portions of none processed food a day.. good fresh seasonal food, cooked from raw food or raw food itself.. as in carrots, sushi etc (for none HFI people).
Keep smiling people and stop worrying... unless you are drinking fruit juice or "smoothies" thinking them to be "healthy" lol

[antonia]

Curious, Bill, is this the article you are referring to as fake?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6684314/?fbclid=IwAR1Iwv7ozwBnt_ixo4XYB1qx-AdB97Z_ej2ed47pwjgPiR3GY8EvwZXTPC8

[ukbill]

No I do not think it is that one, although it has no relevance to HFI.
It is only Fructose that is consumed (eaten) or via IV that we have a problem with. I did not understand exactly what Professor Tim Cox said when I asked about this specifically (none dietary /IV sources of Fructose).
He said that only fructose that uses the 1st pathway i.e. from dietary or accidental contamination via IV that is an issue to us. There are 5 or more known pathways for the breakdown of Fructose as part of other metabolic processes.
None of the other metabolic processes are affected by HFI so can be ignored. He also said few people in the medical professions realised this and frequently made mistakes thinking we would be affected when we are not.

There will be an ever growing quantity of "research" "proving" sugars do not cause diabetes, just as there was a lot of "Research" proving that smoking did not cause cancer... and still is.. and that burning fossil fuels is not causing climate change..

I once was in a meeting with a huge company called ICI regarding a silage treatment used on farms that was made by ICI. This product used sulfuric acid instead of Hydrochloric acid as used by other silage treatment manufacturers.
I had been told by many farmers that using the ICI product caused otherwise healthy cows to drop dead without warning, I brought this up at the meeting run by the scientists at ICI.. all white lab coated professors and PHD people, their response was "oh yes we know about this.. 5% of all the Cows fed on silage treated with Silade silage treatment will die.. However this is perfectly OK because no one can prove it is the Silade that is killing the cows"..
My reply was quite terse!
Unfortunately in the food industry this kind of attitude is normal.
The modern diet that is high in refined starches, sugars and fats (processed foods, cakes cookies chocolate etc) is the key cause of obesity and diabetes. All the evidence is there in full sight for all to see.

[antonia]

Bill, this research in no way, shape, or form supports the sugar industry and the authors devote a whole section to HFI. It indicates that simple sugars, this includes glucose/dextrose, are responsible for all the common morbidities, such as diabetes, heart disease, fatty liver, high blood pressure, kidney disease, obesity, and more. Not just the sugars themselves, but the way in which they are eaten, or essentially their glycemic index or the rate at which they enter the blood stream. If a high glycemic index carbohydrate is eaten, the liver can’t process that flood of sugar all at once through the “normal” pathway, and the polyol pathway is triggered. In this pathway, endogenous fructose is produced. Glucose is converted to sorbitol, sorbitol to fructose, and then, of course, Adolase B is required to process the fructose. If you look at the chart within the article it clearly shows Adolase B present within the polyol pathway. As well as all the morbidities associated with this endogenous fructose producing pathway, unrelated to HFI.

This research explains so much about some of the perplexing things about HFI and unexplainable reactions occurring when no fructose is even eaten. In particular, it explains why simple glucose or dextrose is not good for HFIers. You have been saying this for a while, Bill, and I believe it is true, if not for a different reason. This research shows dextrose need not be contaminated with fructose to cause a reaction. It is how it is eaten. Nothing has a higher glycemic index than dextrose or simple glucose. Whether in the form of dextrose candy, or even IV fluids, a rush of glucose to the liver does not appear to be good for a HFIer. (This could even change the way we treat HFIers with IV fluids.) The more complex a carbohydrate is the lower its glycemic index, or the more slowly glucose is released from that carbohydrate into the blood stream. Carbohydrates eaten along with proteins, fats, and fiber also slows the release of glucose from that carbohydrate in the gut. This research says nothing about rice or pasta, directly, only points to high glycemic index as a trigger for the polyol pathway. Experiments used simple glucose sugar solutions. It is preliminary research, and the authors state that more research needs to be done. Scientific theories, and specifics around a theory, don’t get proven through a single experiment or research project.

Additionally, this research indicates that high levels of salt will also trigger the polyol pathway. Not supporting processed foods at all, given they are not only high in simple sugars but also incredibly high in salt. For the HFIer, it explains why they don’t do well with processed foods, in general. Why nobody does well with processed foods, in general.

[ukbill]

Thanks you for this I think you may be right. however it was my belief (possibly wrong) that the liver is not solely involved in the handling of glucose and Dextrose it being usable by every cell in the body and it was only the fructose part that caused the liver to get stressed even in none HFI people due to the massive doses of Fructose people consume on a daily basis, that overrides the normal fructose metabolism and then results in Cholesterol being produced. However this is far beyond my knowledge base and what you are saying also seems to make sense to me.
This would explain why HFI'ers who were using a lot of Glucose 20+ years ago were dying horrible deaths due to Fructose poisoning while essentially being addicted to taking Glucose many times a day.
I thought it was due to the contamination of Glucose (which I know is a problem too) but also this explanation also makes a lot of sense.
One of the problems I have with these "research" papers is that they ignore the evidence of 100's to 1000's of years.
In China, Indian subcontinent and in Europe (Spain and Italy in particular, these products rice and pasta have been eaten for many many years and no one got diabetes or metabolic syndrome.
The occurrence of these conditions actually shows a 100% link to the uptake of HFCS in the diets of those countries.
That is the ONLY real evidence of a causal link between the diet and Metabolic syndrome / Type two Diabetes.
Where the problems occur is that most pasta sauces and foods eaten with rice these days contain high levels of either sucrose or HFCS if not both.
Take a look around most supermarkets and look at the ready made sauces.. particularly the "Own Brand" sauces which use far more sugars in them than other "brands" due to price.
It is now impossible to find any Chinese style sauce that is not very high is added sugars, likewise pasta sauces. 20+ years ago they contained little to no added sugar.
No one eats pasta without a sauce. I add butter and parsley or olive oil and parsley (sometimes garlic infused olive oil) because eating it freshly cooked without something on it makes it almost completely inedible.
Therefore the tests used in this are unlikely to be relative to the real world. Adding an oil like butter and olive oil will slow down the adsorption rate of pasta dramatically likewise rice.
I almost always use rice when I am making a stir-fry and throw the rice into the wok to mix it all together. SO the rice gets a light coating in the cooking oils.. which used to be veg oils but now I have switched to Gee to reduce my intake of oils that cause inflammation.

In conclusion I will have to give this all a lot more thought and analysis. Thank you again for pointing this out to me.

It is a constant learning cycle and we need to always be moving towards safer diets and foods.. not just us with HFI.

Keep smiling

[antonia]

The triggering of the polyol pathway has to do with the rate at which glucose enters the blood stream or glycemic index. This research doesn’t ignore a diet including rice and pasta, because it makes no claims about it or against it. All it shows is that simple glucose or dextrose can trigger the polyol pathway. Again, no one can prove specifics around a scientific theory within one research project. At what point the polyol pathway is triggered, parameters around glycemic index and overall carb load, would require many more experiments and projects to come - in people, not mice. But all research has to start somewhere. All this research shows, now, is that a solution at the highest glycemic index possible, all simple glucose, will trigger the pathway. It does not specify, but I assume this solution was given without any other food. If that’s the case, then this really is the highest glycemic index possibly attainable. Not at all similar to eating more complex carbohydrates as part of a balanced meal. Nevertheless, it is compelling, and from all accounts real research, not “research”, from my point of view.

Additionally, this research is about endogenous fructose production. It makes no claims or comparisons to exogenous fructose consumption. I think it’s been well established that fructose consumption, especially highly refined sources such as HFCS, is terrible for everyone’s health. That fact is not ignored, the article is actually prefaced by the fact that fructose metabolism is responsible for many of our most common health morbidities of today. Exogenous fructose is just not within the scope of this research project. It’s not what this project is about.

I don’t really know anything about the diets you speak of, but my guess is that these diets were not all carb or heavily carb based but balanced between unprocessed, healthy sources of protein, fat, and fiber. This is certainly the case for other diets touted for their health benefits such as the “Mediterranean diet “.

Personally, I have noticed with my HFI daughter that she does much better when her diet is balanced with proteins, fat, and fiber. She would eat all starchy carbs, if left to her own devices, and there have been times when I didn’t provide enough protein based food for her, eating almost all carbs, and then she doesn’t feel very well and her blood sugar becomes unstable. Things like potatoes she tolerates as homemade mashed, made with lots of cream and butter, and eaten with a full meal. But potato chips, eaten by themselves in a large enough quantity, have made her sick. On the toilet within a half hour to an hour. Potato chips being a denser carbohydrate than fluffy mashed potatoes, and salty to boot, this makes some sense to me in regards to the triggering of the polyol pathway.

I have heard accounts by other HFIers that rice was giving them hypoglycemia. Come to find out they are eating instant rice, and eating it all by itself. Instant rice being precooked and highly refined is not far off from simple glucose in regards to glycemic index. It’s not a whole lot different than eating dextrose candy.

[ukbill]

Potato chips make any HFI'er sick if you eat too many. They do contain a lot of fructose really.
Instant Potato mash (horrible stuff I know) and frozen mashed potato is absolutely fine I can eat any amount of that and feel absolutely nothing at all. however give me real potato mash.. and I have to really watch how much I eat. Butter and Cream slow down the digestion of the potato so slow down the release of the fructose in there.
Highly processed foods (like white flour and frozen mashed potatoes) have had all the nutrient value smashed out of them in the processing. This is why habitual eaters of highly processed foods frequently are lower in vitamins and minerals than people who are officially on the starvation / famine scale, regardless of their physical size.
You also have to remember that in the USA most rice has to be "fortified" by law. this is the addition of some vitamins and protein to the white rice. This is always stuck to the rice using sugar yes table sugar.
So eating rice for American HFI'ers has its dangers.
I can eat any amount of rice and pasta and never ever feel even the slightest problem.
I am restricting the amount of Carbs I eat just now because of my age and family history of Type too diabetes that is age related.
Prof Tim Cox has said on multiple occasions that it is only the basic 1st metabolic pathway that is blocked in HFI'ers and that there are 4 or 5 other pathways that are completely unaffected.
These are internal pathways in which Fructose is produced as part of another metabolic process.
Also with potato chips both salt and oil can successfully hide quite high levels of fructose from the taste buds.

Keep smiling and do not worry at all about feeding your HFI child Pasta or white rice if in America and possibly other countries, make sure you really wash the rice well several times before cooking it!

[antonia]

If you are at risk for type II diabetes then you are not immune to the affects of this pathway. No matter what age you are when you develop it.

The perplexing thing about potatoes is there really isn’t that much fructose in them. Not enough to make one that sick. So, it seems to me it has to do with how they are eaten, not whether they are soaked, or how refined or processed they are.

Again, it has to do with the balance of carbs to other food macros. Ancient peoples never had the kind of availability to grains and starchy vegetables that we have today. Even those who cultivated their own crops, it was a lot work, they couldn’t walk into a grocery store and buy a 5 pound sack of potatoes in a few split seconds. Availability has lead the modern day diet to be exceedingly high in concentrated forms of carbohydrate such as grains and starchy vegetables. We are programmed to crave carbohydrates, because back before we had grocery stores, it protected us from starvation and motivated us to forage for food. Unfortunately, it’s far too easy for us forage these days.

[ukbill]

The calorific value of the foods we eat today is massively higher than at any time in human evolution.
Our bodies have simply not evolved to handle the low nutrient, high calorific value foods we currently eat... from refined Carbs and vegetable oils.
To use a petrol heads analogy it is like running a lawnmower engine on Nitros fuel designed for a drag racing car.
With cattle and horses put them on too strong a feed and they get foot problems (laminitis) very quickly and also it effects fertility as well.
We are not as different as we like to think from other mammals.
Keep smiling